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Take a moment and just imagine with me.
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Imagine a world that runs on civil discourse.
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A place where uncomfortable conversations
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or maybe even heated arguments
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around the Thanksgiving table don't exist.
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Where political conversations don't turn ugly immediately.
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A world where calm and insightful discussion
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is the productive norm.
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Maybe even fights in the hockey rink are solved
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with a handshake instead of fists.
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Well, maybe not that last one, but you get the idea.
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Anyway, sounds like a beautiful world, but a fantasy.
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Never going to happen, right?
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Well, if you were to ask our two guests today,
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they'd tell you that this is a world
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we could be living in right now.
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All it takes is a little listening and a little practice.
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(upbeat music)
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I'm Jacob Carozza
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and you're listening to "Now at Ohio State".
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We talk with researchers, innovators,
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and bold thinkers who look at our world,
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see what the real challenges are,
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and create the solutions that people need now.
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Michael Neblo is a professor of political science,
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philosophy, communication, and public policy at Ohio State.
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His research focuses on deliberative democracy
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and political psychology.
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He's also a published author
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and the director of Ohio State's Institute
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for Democratic Engagement and Accountability.
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He sits down with our Chris Bournea
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to discuss the power of civil discourse,
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how we can work past our partisanship,
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and what role universities and students play in the efforts
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to understand one another better.
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Well, Michael, thank you again for agreeing
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to talk about this topic.
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I really appreciate it.
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Oh, thank you so much for having me.
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I'm really excited and grateful to be here.
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So I guess starting off, why is it even important
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for citizens to engage in civil discourse
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in a democratic society?
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Why is that important at all?
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It's a good question 'cause a lot of people think
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that politics is really about power and money and votes.
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And so it's reasonable to ask why we should spend a lot
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of time and energy and emotional investment
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in trying to maintain civil discourse.
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And I think there are two reasons.
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I think one, it's a good way to show respect
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to each other as democratic equals,
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as democratic citizens, people who have to live together
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and have a certain degree of shared fate.
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And then the other reason is that we make better decisions.
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If we can have a civil discussion without its spinning off
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into name calling and fruitless yelling at each other,
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we can share reasons, we can share perspectives,
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we can try to understand where there's room for compromise
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or even win-wins that are available to us sometimes.
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And civil dialogue,
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civil discourse can help reveal those opportunities
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and can help us make better decisions.
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So how's it even possible
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to have civil dialogue in this era
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when there's such extreme political polarization,
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and we may not even agree on the same set of facts?
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Well, unfortunately it's a lot harder. (laughing)
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But that doesn't mean I think we should just punt
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as soon as it gets hard.
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And to take an example, I'm a political scientist, right?
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I engage with people all the time
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when we don't agree on the facts.
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If anything, we wouldn't have anything to talk about
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if we already agreed on the facts.
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What we're arguing over is the theory and the facts, right?
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And that's precisely why I think it's incumbent upon us
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to do two things.
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One, to only go to the mattresses, so to speak,
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when we really need to.
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It can't be a cynical tactic that we just go to
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because we think we can get a little advantage
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going that way.
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If we do that all the time,
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it corrodes that background of respect and trust
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that facilitates us being able to show each other respect
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and make those good decisions.
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So that's why I think it's really important
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that people don't pull the trigger
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and pull away from civil discourse
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or engage in disruptive or less respectful forms of politics
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unless they really have good reason to do so.
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If they do have good reason to do so.
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I repeat, not only is it okay, we have to sometimes.
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But that we should err on the side
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of believing in the good faith
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of the person across the table from us
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and trying to meet them where they are, understand them,
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and engage them where they are.
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And I would say the same thing is true of polarization,
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that in itself, disagreeing strongly about what to do
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doesn't mean that we can't see the other side,
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respect it, disagree, offer the arguments
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why we think our position is better, but to do so in a way
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that leaves open the possibility
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that they might have something to what they're saying.
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And even if we ultimately think
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there's nothing to what they're saying,
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they're still human beings and our fellow citizens
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and worthy of that respect and engagement.
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At schools and universities, how do educators and students
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talk about issues like politics
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and social issues in a way
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in which everyone feels respected and heard?
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So in a lot of ways, I think universities
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are set up to foster, encourage,
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and value those sorts of disagreements
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and that form of dialogue.
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That said, it's clearly become more difficult over time.
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And in some ways, I think that has more to do
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with a decline in trust than in civility per se.
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Because you've got a lot of people who are self-disciplined
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and they're not engaging in uncivil forms
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of behavior at the drop of a hat themselves.
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But they don't trust that the other person is not.
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And that just leads to disengagement
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or to people sitting on their hands
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or to kind of closing off ahead of time
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rather than really listening
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and trying to meet people where they're at
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and take them seriously from their point of view,
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even if we ultimately continue to disagree
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at a very deep level.
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And so as an instructor, I think my goal has always been,
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but it's even deeper and more urgent now,
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to try to facilitate a local class culture where people see
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that it's okay to disagree
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and that it can be done respectfully and constructively.
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It doesn't mean that the other person is bad,
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that we don't jump to the conclusion
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that if we disagree, somebody has to be stupid
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or morally vicious.
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It might be that we have different life experiences,
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that we have different perspectives,
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different theoretical backgrounds that we bring to the task.
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And so modeling that out of the gate for the students,
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showing a certain degree of vulnerability,
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not coming in hard every time I feel provoked,
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I think is really essential.
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But it can be done.
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I'm teaching right now,
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and it's actually a course on, in a sense, civil discourse,
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it's called Debating Democracy.
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And we've had guest speakers
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from former members of Congress and lobbyists
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and people from opposite sides of the political spectrum.
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But the great part of it is that our guests model,
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these are people who, for a living,
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are in conflict with each other about politics.
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And yet they treat each other with dignity and respect
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and understand where the other person is coming from.
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And so I think it starts really, to the extent
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that faculty have, you know, influence on this,
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it starts with modeling it in the classroom
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and rewarding that behavior when the students exhibit it.
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Outside of the classroom,
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how can we have conversations with people who
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we may not see eye to eye,
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we may not see the world in the same way?
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Yeah, I think one of the key ways to do that,
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and this is backed by research, is to ask questions.
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And ask questions in a way that doesn't implicitly
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say that you're agreeing with the person,
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but doesn't start from the premise that they must be crazy.
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And really trying to understand.
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And you can think that what they're saying
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is immovably crazy, but that doesn't mean they are crazy.
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Because all of us, at one point or another,
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probably believe or espouse
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something that's pretty indefensible.
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And the key is to understand what got them there,
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and if it's available,
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helping to gently at least help them see the alternative,
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why you don't agree.
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And sometimes it goes back to actually just a version
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of what we were talking about in the last question,
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which is just modeling for people,
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having them experience in a very human, direct,
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one-to-one way
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that disagreement doesn't have to mean,
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doesn't have to jump to some sort
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of judgment about another person's sanity or humanity.
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So can you tell me about the work you do
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with the Institute for Democratic Engagement
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and Accountability, whose acronym is appropriately IDEA?
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(chuckling) Thank you.
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Yes, I kind of like the idea that it's the Ohio State IDEA.
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I really think we should be asking people more
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what they think they're good consistent,
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and encouraging them to re-engage
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and facilitating them being able to do so
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in a constructive way.
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At our institute, what we really focus on,
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we mobilize expertise and the resources
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of the university as well.
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But it's not to make
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or recommend substantive policy in itself.
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It's to create the conditions where people
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who have stepped away from politics
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because they think nobody's listening
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and that it's just a blood sport.
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It's an ugly thing they want nothing to do with,
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who have stepped away from politics.
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And just to go back to your previous question briefly,
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that magnifies the perception
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that it's only people shouting at each other.
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'Cause a lot of other people have opted out
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saying, I want no part of this, right?
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But in the Institute's work, one of the things
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we really try to do is say, no,
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there are opportunities for this,
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to do a better form of politics, come on back in.
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And people do, and they do in droves.
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And then what we do is subsidize their ability
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to participate meaningfully.
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We take really high quality information
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from government reports, nonpartisan government reports,
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scale it to a ninth grade reading level.
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We record it so that if you're blind or illiterate,
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you can still participate.
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We're working on translating
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into the 14 most common languages spoken
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in the United States.
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So we're really, really focused on inclusion
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and bringing all the voices back in.
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So that's the citizen side of it.
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And then we go to elected officials.
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And we say, no, your constituents aren't apathetic,
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they're frustrated.
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That's why they're not participating.
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You think that they're apathetic, that's the story.
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They care very much, but they think nobody's listening.
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If you go and credibly tell them, no, really, I want to hear
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what you have to say, they're gonna show up and tell you.
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And it turns out they do.
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And so the Institute's primary work,
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in a way, is to be matchmakers.
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It's to find elected officials who are willing to reengage
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and to listen to people beyond the donors
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and the party activists,
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where everybody already knows where they stand,
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why have a deliberation with them?
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They tell you with their checkbooks
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what they want you to do, right?
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Regular citizens oftentimes don't know
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ahead of time what they want.
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They just wanna figure out the issue by their own lights
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and have a chance to talk to somebody in authority
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to make those decisions
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and convey their views on the matter.
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And that's what we do in deliberative town halls.
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We take random samples of constituents,
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make it easy for them to participate,
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subsidize their information searches,
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help them find good quality sources,
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and then make it very easy to directly convey those views
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to their fellow citizens, to engage their fellow citizens,
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but then also do that in the presence
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and interaction with empowered decision makers.
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Well, Michael, thank you again for sharing your insights
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and your expertise and thank you for your work.
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Thank you so much.
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I really, really appreciate it.
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(upbeat music)
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Gretchen Klingler also believes
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we can work past our partisanship.
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She has to.
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Gretchen spent six years in the Air Force
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and eventually became
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a Pat Tillman Foundation Military Scholar
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who earned degrees in cultural anthropology
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and Arabic at Ohio State.
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Now she's the senior veterans manager
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for the US Global Leadership Coalition,
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a bipartisan nonprofit organization based in Washington DC.
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She helps veterans share their experiences
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to educate Congress and Americans
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on the international strategic importance
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of combining diplomacy and development with military force.
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She sits down with our Ross Bishoff
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to discuss her work at the nonprofit,
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how her military experience shapes her interactions,
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and how we can be just as thoughtful
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in our conversations with others.
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Gretchen, thank you so much for doing this today.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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I'm really looking forward to the discussion.
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You're a war veteran working to make war rare.
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Can you sort of unpack that, explain what your job is?
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My job is that I work for a nonprofit that's based in DC
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called the US Global Leadership Coalition.
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And the organization itself advocates for
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the International Affairs budget.
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It's a small 1% of the congressional budget
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that funds all of our diplomacy
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and development internationally, overseas.
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So think funding the State Department, USAID, Peace Corps,
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all of these programs that we're using as a nation
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to hopefully get out ahead of war and conflict.
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It can't always be done, of course.
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However, if it's not funded appropriately,
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then we certainly can't get out ahead of it.
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And so my position
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is that I work with veterans across the country,
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asking them to come
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and be a part of our coalition, come to our events
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and learn more about what these programs do for our country,
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why they need to continue to be funded,
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and then offer them opportunities to reach out
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to their representatives and senators
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to share why it's important to them as military veterans
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that we're supporting soft power
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and diplomacy and development.
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What is soft power?
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Soft power, yeah, it's one of those military ish concepts.
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But if you think of the military as hard power
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and diplomacy, development,
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those things that influence other people,
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that's more of the soft power piece.
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If you combine the two of them together,
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it's been termed smart power.
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What is incredible about your story is we live in this
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incredibly divisive, echo chambery kinda world
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where it's me versus you and all these things.
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And yet you are cutting through all of that
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to try to get things done.
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Yeah.
How do you do that?
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(laughing) I listen a lot and I do it very carefully.
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When it comes to the programs
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that I advocate for professionally,
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there are a lot of different ways to yes,
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to supporting these programs.
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For some people it may be that it's important
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for their faith and they believe their humanitarian values
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speak to why we as a nation should do this.
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For other people, they may believe that the economics
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of helping a country overseas build a port
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so they can receive American goods and services,
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that those economic benefits to our country
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are extremely important.
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I'm not trying to identify somebody as friend or foe,
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or as, you know, whatever political stripes
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somebody is choosing to wear.
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I want to know what they care about
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and what makes them tick and why.
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So why does somebody care about the economy?
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Why is this something that is so important to them?
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Why does somebody care about humanitarian values
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or their faith values?
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And the more that I get to know that person
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as an individual, the more that I'm able to
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see the bigger picture of how maybe this person,
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if they're interested in supporting the work
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that I do professionally, how they may be interested
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and fit into the model that we are working with.
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And so if we can help advocate for resolutions
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before people start shooting at each other,
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then that's the goal.
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And you don't need to be any particular political stripe
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in order to advocate for that.
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We're very proud to be a bipartisan coalition
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working on both sides and across the aisle.
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What does it take to just cut through all the, I guess,
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the rhetoric and the partisanship?
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What are maybe just some basic tips you'd give to somebody?
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I would say that everyone that I have talked to
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has something that matters to them deeply past politics.
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Maybe it's their community or their faith or a hobby,
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or an experience that they've had
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or a place that they've lived.
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And that's the baseline that I start at.
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I want to know the person as the person,
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and then I build from there.
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Most people do know what things
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that you can and can't say that might upset somebody
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or offend somebody or set somebody off.
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And I really just avoid those.
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It's because I'm not trying to sit down with somebody
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and make somebody mad.
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I'm trying to get to know them.
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If I throw out degrading commentary about, you know,
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one political side or the other,
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then I'm already starting to degrade
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that relationship before I even set its firm foundation.
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So I would say one of the biggest pieces of advice
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that I would give is
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we know what rhetoric is going to upset people.
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Why do we have to use it?
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What is the need to use it?
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And if you're going into a conversation
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to get to know somebody, don't use it.
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If you're going into a conversation
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because you're trying to argue and prove that you're right,
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that's a completely separate discussion.
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But that's not the kind of discussion
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that I'm trying to have.
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Reflecting on my military experience,
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there were so many people that I served with,
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I have no idea what their politics were or are.
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I don't know.
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I just knew that we were there in the same room.
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I had a respect for them, they had a respect for me,
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and we were doing our jobs.
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In the end, what you were supposed
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to be doing in the military is you were supposed
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to have your buddy's back
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and your buddy was supposed to have yours,
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regardless of what religion, politics, you know, background.
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That was supposed to be what it was.
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And often that is what it was.
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I pull a lot from that,
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my time in the military, reflecting on those things.
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Because I didn't need to know
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what somebody's politics were in order to get the job done.
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Talk about how important it is
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when you're dealing with a lot of people
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and maybe you're in a room discussing something,
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how important is it to just listen, respect people,
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allow people to be heard,
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like those basic things maybe you learned in kindergarten
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that we've gotten away from.
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But how important is that and how do you do that?
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So without people feeling like they are heard
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and respected, it is impossible to build a community.
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Because everybody is in their own corners,
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everybody has their shields up,
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everybody feels like they have to defend themselves.
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But when you open the floor to people
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and give them the opportunity to speak,
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I mean, that is really the crux of what a democracy is
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is the opportunity to speak and be heard.
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And if we're not doing that,
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then there's no way to bridge those gaps
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if all we're doing is picking sides
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and you know, throwing spears.
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The way that I do that is I do my best to try
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to see both sides of the story.
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Now granted, I may not agree with it,
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but I try to understand it from that person's perspective.
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Maybe what their lived experiences are, where they've been,
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how they were raised, what era they were raised in.
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I mean, there's so many pieces to this puzzle,
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and that's one of the things
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that I just love about anthropology is there's so many ways
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to look at the human experience.
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But if I'm taking all of these things into consideration
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and do my best to assume
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that someone has the best of intentions,
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the end result ends up being,
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I'm able to have a conversation with somebody
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and allow them the opportunity to share
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what is on their mind and what's on their heart.
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And really just try
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to see it from their perspective without me trying to put
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my own judgment on it.
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If I'm trying to get to know somebody,
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placing blame and judgment on decisions
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that they've made in their life
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makes it that much harder to build rapport
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and to create that foundational level of respect.
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What is it like to sit down with people,
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have this kind of a civil discourse
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or a really just a positive conversation about this
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and just see what happens or feel the energy in the room?
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What's that like for you?
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It is like feeling a weight lifted off my shoulders
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where I know that the person
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that is sitting next to me respects me and I respect them
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even if we disagree.
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And so there isn't that burden of
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I had to say the right thing, I have to do the right thing,
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I have to watch what I say about this and that.
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I mean, in practice I've gotten used to that
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because of course I have my own politics and so do they.
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But if I'm having a conversation that is supposed
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to be built around mutual respect and trust
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and building understanding of each other's experiences,
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if that person is meeting me where I am
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and I'm meeting me where they are, we're able
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to build a foundation of friendship and trust
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and understanding that goes past politics
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and some of the pettiness
494
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that we see right now across social media
495
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or media in general.
496
00:22:48.120 --> 00:22:51.810
I think there's so much focus right now
497
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on yelling at somebody until they are willing to back down,
498
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not agree with you, but just back down and be quiet.
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So that say it were me, that like,
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I'm gonna yell at you and demean you
501
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and make you look bad until you just sit down and be quiet.
502
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And then I can have the platform.
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That's not what it's supposed to be.
504
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It's supposed to be that we're sitting down
505
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and helping each other understand.
506
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And that's hard work.
507
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It is hard work, and it is exhausting at times
508
00:23:24.330 --> 00:23:26.190
because you really have to sit down
509
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and put yourself in somebody else's shoes
510
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and try to understand life through their eyes,
511
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not as you see them, but as they see themselves.
512
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Sometimes that changes minds.
513
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Sometimes sharing my experience with somebody goes, oh gosh,
514
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I didn't realize that somebody had that experience before.
515
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Man, I really need to think about
516
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where I'm coming from in this.
517
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And sometimes their experience has solidified them
518
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and is so resolute that they hear you,
519
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but it's not changing their mind.
520
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And I don't go into conversations to change people's minds.
521
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I just want them to understand where I'm coming from.
522
00:24:03.210 --> 00:24:04.830
Gretchen, this has been amazing.
523
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Thank you so much for talking with us today.
524
00:24:06.780 --> 00:24:08.080
Thank you for having me.
525
00:24:09.661 --> 00:24:12.244
(upbeat music)
526
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We all have our own politics.
527
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That's not going to change.
528
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We all have our own unique histories,
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our individual experiences, and life lessons.
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That being said, we also all have a responsibility
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to recognize that in each other, to listen to one another,
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00:24:30.330 --> 00:24:34.200
and accept others' realities even if we might not agree.
533
00:24:34.200 --> 00:24:37.290
And until we do that, the echo chambers will keep echoing,
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00:24:37.290 --> 00:24:38.924
the rhetoric will keep flying,
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00:24:38.924 --> 00:24:41.070
and the Thanksgiving dinner conversations
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00:24:41.070 --> 00:24:42.750
will keep getting more tense
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00:24:42.750 --> 00:24:45.540
as the mashed potatoes slowly grow cold.
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00:24:45.540 --> 00:24:48.480
A world of civil discourse is possible.
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00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:51.300
All we have to do is listen, understand,
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00:24:51.300 --> 00:24:53.070
and remember the lesson we all learned
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00:24:53.070 --> 00:24:54.810
when we were just young children,
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00:24:54.810 --> 00:24:57.303
treat others the way you want to be treated.
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00:24:59.779 --> 00:25:02.362
(upbeat music)
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00:25:05.812 --> 00:25:08.395
(upbeat music)
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"Now at Ohio State"
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00:25:15.210 --> 00:25:17.670
is produced by The Ohio State University's Office
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00:25:17.670 --> 00:25:19.560
of Marketing and Communications.
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00:25:19.560 --> 00:25:24.560
For more information, visit us at go.osu.edu/now.
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00:25:25.320 --> 00:25:27.270
I'm your host, Jacob Carozza.
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00:25:27.270 --> 00:25:28.320
Thanks for listening.